A Potential Atlanta Falcons Free Agent: Ben Grubbs
by Dave Choate on Feb 3, 2012 8:00 AM EST
in Falcons Talk
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PrintCarl Nicks is unhappy with New Orleans for not making a contract offer already. That bodes well for the Falcons, but not that well.
After all, Nicks is likely to be hugely expensive. He's likely gaining leverage over the Saints right now, and the Saints are said to want him back. The Falcons can get him and I do hope they'll at least try, but it won't be easy.
The more promising possibility might be Ben Grubbs.
It's difficult to argue that Grubbs is better than Nicks. The Ravens' guard is borderline elite and has done a great job of protecting Joe Flacco in recent years, but he's not quite as powerful a blocker as Nicks. That's fine, because that small difference in ability could account for a few million dollars on the final salary line.
So what of Grubbs? He played only ten games in 2011 due to injury, but he's generally been a durable, consistent starter. He has a well-rounded skill set, quality size at 6'3" and 310 and fundamentally sound blocking. He's very good by virtue of being good at pretty much everything.
Considering how well Todd McClure and Tyson Clabo played this season, the right side of the line only needs help as guard. Grubbs is a little smaller than Justin Blalock and would probably fit in exceptionally well on the right side of the line, leaving the Falcons with only one glaring weakness: Left tackle. If Will Svitek can take a step forward, even that's not a true weakness.
I truly believe the Falcons need to upgrade along the line however they can, and to be frank, the best free agent options are guards. Grubbs would be an excellent choice, in my addled mind.
Your thoughts?
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I agree
As much as I do believe that Hawley and Johnson are,adjusted for the lost offseason and Johnsons injury,on schedule and will turn out to be outstanding interior linemen,it wont be enough if the ‘future is now’
.
Falcons will make a push
One of the glaring concerns this year was the offensive line. I feel the team will do their best to fix a glaring weakness that could not provide solid protection for our start QB. Nicks obviously is the unanimous choice, but at what salary command do we say No can do? Bell as well as Grubbs are free agents as well and will have a lower asking price.
If the Falcons decide to go in another direction via free agency or the draft, Mike Johnson could be given a shot at guard. Honestly I don’t see the Falcons drafting an offensive lineman this year with their limited number of draft picks. It’s time to address those glaring position’s that have question marks arriving soon…TE, RB.
Coaching wins championships!
Nicks is not the unanimous choice... I oppose
But it is for the reasons you stated. The asking price will be too high. I wouldn’t be opposed to entering the bidding, as long as we push the price up for the Saints and they get him at a premium. I think Mike Johnson will step in and do well now that he is finally going to be healthy. I would be much more in favor of looking at Bell, again, as long as the asking price isn’t too high. We could pick up a potential LT in the draft, but the odds of a late second round pick starting immediately at LT are slim.
"He has lived up to the legendary billing... And the legend is born in Calvin Johnson!" -Wes Durham
by sportsfan4life2012 on Feb 3, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
we need to get whoever we can
I think svitek did well last year and with a full camp should be decent enough. We dont need to spend a ton of money on one guy. Id rather see tge money spread around for mutiple positions since we need help in a few spots. Sign lofton at all costs!
by ocfalcon on Feb 3, 2012 9:25 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Not sure FA is to go after OL
Right now, as I see it, we have three opening on the OL. I think McClure will be resigned, but he’s only good for one more season. We obviously had rotating chairs at RG and I love what Svitek did at the end of the season, but he’s not the long-term answer.
I think Mike Johnson/Andrew Jackson will be given the opportunity to compete for that RG spot – especially since we have Pat Hill now running the OL (he coached AJ at Fresno). That leaves Center and LT to look at.
The early mock drafts I’m seeing have the Falcons taking Nate Potter in the second round. If that was the case, he could potentially come in and challenge for that LT spot in the camps. That would leave center as the only remaining position in contention. The question then is whether there is a day 1 starting center to be had in the third round, or the FO thinks Hawley will do better at the position with a full off-season to prepare.
Honestly, I’d rather see the Falcons go after a beast DE in free agency. I’d love to see them make a hard run at Mario Williams as opposed to Nicks. I think we can properly address the offensive line with the players already on our roster and with a draft pick or two (especially since free agency is lacking in good tackles).
Success is internally determined and externally executed.
Mario
I think the reason we ended up scoring Big Play Ray was because the franchise that had him didn’t want him enough. Coming off of what, an 8.5 sack season? They probably wanted to keep him, but weren’t prepared to pony up what the Falcons did. After all, they have Jared Allen on the other side. Ray who? I sincerely doubt Houston is willing to be outbid on Mario. If a bidding war does ensue, I also doubt we have money left over to deal with the Lofton, DeCoud, Grimes ker-fuffle.
Cap space
We have more flexibility than Houston does, but you’re right – they’re probably going to want to keep Mario if at all possible.
As for Ray – we got him because the Vikes had another guy lined up behind him that they felt had the same potential, but would cost less.
Success is internally determined and externally executed.
I have to disagree with you about
us having the players on the roster already. We shuffled our line so much last year and it was still just good enough to beat the losing teams. Plugging Grubbs in solidifies our line for a few more years. I think we sign McClure to one more year but I think Hawley will be a pretty decent center in this league. I do agree that we should bet Nate Potter if we’re in the position to do so.
However, if we do this, it’s highly unlikely we can sign Grimes and a DE. He’s probably around the 4.5-$5 million a year mark base salary.
Nate Potter's short arms
Multiple scouting reports are focusing on his short arms…An LT with short arms: sound familiar?
Short arms, and his player comparison is...
"He has lived up to the legendary billing... And the legend is born in Calvin Johnson!" -Wes Durham
by sportsfan4life2012 on Feb 3, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yikes, we definitely need to stay away from Nate Potter
Anyone being compared to Sam Baker is bad news
T-Rex Arms? Tired of it.
A little bit of nerd rage time. Long time lurker, infrequent poster. You know the drill. Anyway… I’m as frustrated as everyone else about the Sam Baker thing, but knock off the “short arm” thing already. NFL combine stats for him were arms 33 and 1/8 inches long. His arms are longer than Jake Long’s. Perhaps you’ve heard of him. His arms were measured at 32 and 7/8 inches long. Ryan Clady’s arms that year were 1 inch longer than Baker’s. If you’re going to tell me 1 inch in arm length is the difference between a good NFL tackle and a bad NFL tackle, I’m going to assume you’re my wife posting on here to torment me about my inadequacies. Quit it wifey. Stats from nfl.com/combine.
To the point, Baker’s arm length is not the issue. Nor was drafting a 4 year LT starter for USC during the Leinhart / Reggie Bush years, who had been projected to go in the first ten picks before injury. We can certainly debate the wisdom of drafting players from the injury bargain bin (I think there’s some sense to it, see William Moore, Adrian Claybourne), but I don’t think there should be any debate about mythical t-rex arm length or that a 4 year LT starter at that program at that point in time, was “undeserving” of a late first round pick, and that TD is an idiot. Clearly, I’ve reached my limit with these posts that just assume the truth and parrot it without a shred of thought. Same goes with that Walter football report. Bad reporting that relies on internet group think makes me distrust that source.
End nerd rage. Sorry.
by NB on Feb 3, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Not persuasive
For every measurement and player you’ve named, I’ve found 5+ different measurements; Ryan Clady’s arms are in excess of 36 inches, Sam Baker’s are about 32 3/4. In 2008 only two teams started tackles with shorter arms than Baker, with about 2/3 of the tackles exceeding 34 inches. And claiming that NFL.com stats are somehow official simply isn’t true, since every team takes their own measurements, and other official combine stats can be found on other reputable news websites (of which NFL.com is only a media outlet).
Are you right in criticizing fans that latch on to one criterion without understanding why it is a real problem? I certainly agree. But to say that short arms don’t put the tackle in a disadvantage in redirecting speed rushers and controlling the bull rush is just wrong. Good technique and a nasty streak can certainly overcome this physical limitation, but Sam Baker’s lack of strength and short arms force him into situations where he is constantly beat, allowing a sack or being called for a hold. Any GM will tell you there are real reasons for preferring certain body types over others, and the difference of a few inches can make or break a player in the NFL.
by TheAreopagite on Feb 5, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Stats
The reason I selected all members of the same draft class, and same combine class was to control for variations. The combine is the NFL’s baby. It reports the “official” results which other media outlets follow. Some teams time their own things, but NFL combine is as official as things get. You cannot trust individual teams. That’s why every year people show up and are found to be several inches shorter and pounds lighter than their college reported stats (to sy nothing of 40 times…). Teams lie. College and NFL. Because some yahoo with a blog has a different measurement should not trump the ones recorded by likely the same person, on the same day, using a uniform method. You don’t have to assume the truth of those stats, everyone can and should be a skeptic, but those should be the least skeptically viewed statistics on this issue. I’m happy to post links if you want.
Valid point about technique and strength. But those aren’t arm length issues. I think the Sam Baker analysis really is a creature of going to the injury bargain bin. When healthy, he has been serviceable. When not, he hasn’t been. Perhaps the lack of offseason hurt his prep and health, but no question last year was rough for him (particularly Philly). In searching for his replacement though, I don’t want the analysis focused on only one criterion. Especially one that “official and uniform” combine stats seem to directly refute. On inch or inches of arm length, is one or two inches even a huge deal in heavy weight boxing? 6 inches or more I buy, anything less is reaction speed, intelligence and technique that you have learned your whole life. Same reason to disclaim criticism of Adrian Claybourne’s arm, and Drew Brees’ height. If you’ve produced at a high level, you can at the next level. Sam Baker produced at a high level in college (check his awards). Not as good at this level as we had hoped. NFL is full of others just like him. But it is a myriad of factors, and certainly in very large part his health (back to the injury bargain bin discussion). Thank both of you for sharing your thoughts.
by NB on Feb 5, 2012 11:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Johnson should get his shot
I understand the frustration with the OLine play last year, but I think that was a factor of many things – not just the players. The offense didn’t adapt to take pressure off. We all agree that plays like screens or quick-outs would have taken some pressure off of the line, but we never utilized them. Even little things like chipping from the tight ends would have helped.
Where the RG position is concerned, I think we have two young prospects that should be given the chance first. If we do sign someone like Grubbs, we really should only get them signed for a year or two. But Mike Johnson – who we picked up in the third round – was a solid prospect for both run and pass blocking and he came out of a major school. He’s the kind of guy we would draft THIS year for the RG position. The only reason he didn’t get the shot was because of a slate of injuries (which he was not previously known for).
I think our bigger question mark is the long-term future at center (is Hawley really the guy?) and at LT (Svitek is only serviceable at best).
Success is internally determined and externally executed.
It would be nice but
the Falcons are not going to tied up that much cap space in two interior linemen. Blalock is on the books for 38 million and I just doubt the Falcons would shell out another salary like that for another guard. Heck if so they would have kept Dahl. Especially without the LT position being addressed first. It would be great to have a Nicks or Grubbs but it’s not gonna happen. I don’t think the Falcons have given up on Mike Johnson. Svitek could move down to guard. Baker is going to get a chance to compete as well. If your gonna spend big bucks on a FA lineman it should be at the LT position. Unfortunately there are no quality LT’s in FA that I’m aware of. IMO the Falcons will make a move up to draft a LT and let players on the team compete for the RG position. If your gonna get a guality LT you have to move up, just sitting and hoping a Nate Potter is there is not the move to make. I expect TD will be aggressive here because his choices are limited. I would be surprised to see McClure back as a starter. The front office was clearly disappointed in the production of the O-line and McClure is the supposed leader of the O-line so…it’s time to move on from that situation.
Not sure about McClure
The line play improved once he was consistently back in. That said, he is getting older and his injury issues last year don’t help. I’m not sure if Hawley is the future, but I think he’ll get his chance to prove one way or the other.
As for LT – I think you’re dead-on. I just can’t see TD standing still and waiting for a player to show up for him. I fully expect some kind of move to happen in the draft.
Success is internally determined and externally executed.
Grimes Gone
Carolina will be more than happy to give Grimy 7-9M, Abe will get 8-10M for 2 years, If this happens I think we will agressively seek Mario Williams and SD, LT, Gather
bravesfan1957
I understand there is a good chance Grimes is gone...
…but I would be pissed if he went to Carolina, or anywhere in the division for that matter.
by FalconsFansincePrimetime on Feb 3, 2012 11:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I say...
pay for Nicks!!
But, this would def be a nice fallback option should that not come to pass (Nicks that is).
"I'd run over my own mother to win the Super Bowl." - Joe Jacoby, formerly of the Redskins
"To win, I'd run over Joe's mom too." - Matt Millen, formerly of the Raiders
"We now have exactly the same situation as we had at the start of the race, only exactly the opposite" - Murray Walker, Sportscaster
Grubbs at RG and
Sign Chad Clifton, a likely free agent, to a 2 year deal. Clifton locks down the LT spot until we can get around to drafting the LT of the future. Then plug Hawley in at center and open up RT to competition in order to light a fire under Clabo. Clifton is older, but he has a twelve year proven history of success.
If we pursued another free agent DE
I would hate to think we sign another DE via free agency after signing one last year.
Not once have the Falcons’s ponyed up the money for a top offensive lineman. Now would be a grand time to do so. They want to open up the passing game? Offer Matty Ice some top notch protection? Open some huge holes for our RB’s? Nicks is a sure signing at this point, and as much as Mario Williams looks good, I would trade in his 13 sacks for an additional 2 seconds in the pocket for Matty Ice.
Coaching wins championships!
I think you are underestimating the effect a good defense can have on an offense. That said...
I think we go for a sleeper prospect on the OL who may have been injured and saw his stock fall (like an Andrew Datko who has gone from a potential first to a sixth based on injury) or a small-school guy who has question marks (Matt McCants from UAB, Tom Compton from South Dakota). We plug in Johnson and Hawley (or leave McClure) on the line and finally get some continuity. That is the reason why the offensive line performed so admirably two years ago and poorly last year, too much shuffling. When the line has continuity, they will perform well and give Matt the protection he needs.
"He has lived up to the legendary billing... And the legend is born in Calvin Johnson!" -Wes Durham
by sportsfan4life2012 on Feb 3, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
As for DE
I Think we can get a good guy in the second round some mock drafts have us taking whitney merculis who is a stud, TD has been draft at drafting its the old coaching staff who developed players slowly im sure hell find a diamond beast DE/OLB in the second round. Remember if were gonna switch to a 3-4 drafting a guy whos a DE/OLB will be clutch
He won't make it to us unless we trade up
We have a better shot at Curry or my choice Branch. Id also take Fleener over Green in the 3rd since he is more polished.
by pierre02 on Feb 3, 2012 8:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Fleener is more polished than Green
for sure but Fleener is rated as the #2 TE in the draft and a 1st or 2nd round pick. I doubt he’ll be on the board when ATL comes up in the 2nd and I’m don’t know if picking a TE in the 2nd is the best for the team.
Based only on the CBS draft analysis I’d have to lean toward Curry over Branch. Curry could be a very good pick up for someone.
If we get a free agent RG
what happens to Johnson?
The only problem I have with Grubbs
is that he absolutely got dominated in the AFCCG. And that’s going to be his last game until next season
Pat Hill is so good we move Vance Walker to OG ... Ray Edwards to OT and dominate
that and I need sleep and coffee….YOU make the call
Technically the glass is always full. 1/2 air. 1/2 water.
It's Friday...rational thought...slowly ... drifting away....
Technically the glass is always full. 1/2 air. 1/2 water.
I second that
Too many thoughts, way too much over thinking over here.
Coaching wins championships!
by Edgecrusher211 on Feb 3, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
Although Nicks Would Be Great
Grubbs is no slouch he generally gets over looked in the AFC cause of guys like mankins but he is a solid player ravens will prob let em go cause they have great depth at oline to fill in, also picking jared gaither hes an elite tackle just had trouble getting healthy if we take a one yr deal on him have will as back up since he did generally well we should be good on the oline. IN conclusion grubbs would be a solid pick hes an underrated guard in this league also take a shot on Jared Gaither
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