Icing the IceMan
by that_falcon_fan on Feb 14, 2012 5:26 PM EST
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PrintYou know as the upcoming draft nears closer, I have faced the fact of what positions are deep and what ones aren't? Tight End is definitely one of the deepest I have ever seen. Quarterbacks are not so deep. There are like two I hear about everyday I think. You know both of them I am sure: Andrew Luck and RG3. (His nickname sounds pretty cool. Like a secret agent!) With thinking about that, it brought up what our team needs the most. Every Falcons fan has opinion on where the 2nd round pick should go it seems like. While think about team needs another thought crossed my mind though...
Is Matt Ryan possibly our cancer?
Now before you go off, I love Matt Ryan and will defend him against about any nay-sayer. The only QB that I like more than him is Matthew Stafford. I am not saying those are the two best QB's in the league, but neither two are pushovers.
With that opinion out of the way, you would think that I wouldn't even consider my mind's question possible. Yet, I started mulling it over anyway. I mean I know that he set career numbers and franchise records this year, but he didn't score a single point in the playoff loss. I know that the play calling was absolutely terrible. Coaches cannot control how a play is executed though. The Iceman has also had his stretches of being inconsistent. Not Mark Sanchez inconsistent but still. It also seems that sometimes that Matt just doesn't move around enough to keep a play going, like the Eli Mannings and Vicks of the league. Matt Ryan is still a better passer than Vick, that is not the argument, I am saying he is not mobile. He is also seems to not want to stretch the play for a few more yards when he does make a half-ass scramble. Remember when he ran out with like 7 yards between him and the defender on a scramble? Ugh.
So before I start a fuss with the Falcoholics, I wanted to know, am I wrong for even considering this possible?
This FanPost was written by one of The Falcoholic's talented readers. It does not necessarily reflect the views of The Falcoholic.
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"Matt did not score a single point in the playoff loss"`
Really. That rests solely on Ryan. A team that had a crappy OL all season playing one of the best pass rushes in the NFL. An offense that had NO plays to help against a strong pass rush. An OC that barely used Snelling or Quizz. An OC that rarely used HD and no receiver deeper on the roster than HD. Play calling that was predictable to a third grader. Yep, Matt was the problem.
He isnt that cancer but...
he isnt the answer is what i meant to post but prematurely posted. we just got to give him grade A protection.
"Ryan has the 'it factor' you look for in a top-flight signal caller."
—NFL draft guru Mel Kiper Jr.
by 84BiRdSfLyInHiGh11 on Feb 14, 2012 7:22 PM EST reply actions
I wouldn't call him a cancer
But I find it startling that people on this site are ready to blame everyone for our offensive woes except Ryan. I was looking through some numbers the other day, and realized something: Ryan is basically a slightly inferior version of Tony Romo. Romo is better in yards, completion percentage, passer rating, YPA, td/int ratio, etc, and these results have been consistent throughout his career, not just this season. Somehow, Romo is ostracized for his mistakes while Ryan is praised even though, by most objective statistics, Romo is better. I wouldn’t trade Ryan for Romo (because Ryan is younger and I don’t think it would cure what ails our team) and I don’t think that Ryan can’t surpass someone like him eventually, but it’s nice to see someone at least talking about it.
The thing I find funny about posts like yours
is that people on this board cannot make direct comparisons worth a darn. Saying Ryan is an slightly inferior version of Romo stat wise is really a compliment to Ryan due to the limitations he had to work with. For example:
Last season Robinson and Bryant for DAL ranked 8th and 13th in DYAR and each had over 1000 eYards. Robinson was 3rd in DVOA and Bryant was 13th. ATL’s best WR, RWhite, was 19th in DYAR and 46th in DVOA. JJ was 27th and 32nd in DYAR and DVOA. Miles Austins performance eclipsed HD’s. Does that mean the DAL’s WR core is that much better than ATL’s? Probably not. It does indicate that DAL passing offense is much more effective and that’s probably due to DAL having a much better OC.
This will be the first season that Ryan will be out from under MM so let’s see what happens.
Does that mean the DAL’s WR core is that much better than ATL’s?
it’s a push, which means it’s probably the qb that makes these WR efficient, not the other way around. And frankly, that’s the way it usually is in the NFL. Tell me, as far as WRs go, what’s limiting Ryan exactly? He throws two two talent first rounders and a HOF TE. Poor guy, he has so little to work with!
It does indicate that DAL passing offense is much more effective and that’s probably due to DAL having a much better OC.
or Qb. Why does everyone overlook that? Maybe their passing game is more effective because they have a more effective signal caller.
But you do raise an interesting point. Tony Romo isn’t bad, so saying Ryan is a little beneath him isn’t so much an insult. My point is this: Do you hear anyone singing Romo’s praises, saying he’s a step away from being elite or that he’s a wonderful qb? NO! Hell, Cowboys fans want him run out of town. I just wonder why we (and the media) praise a qb that has done less and bash others who do more. I’m all about the equitable treatment of players, no matter what team they play for. I really just want discussion on the topic, and for people to stop glossing over it like we have the love-child of Peyton Manning and Joe Montana under center.
The thing I funny about your post is that no matter what Ryan does, people like you will always be ready with excuses for him. He’s a grown man. Stop coddling him. Let me guess, If Ryan regresses next year, you’ll say “It was just his first year under DK! Everyone give him a break, he’s still so young! But feel free to crucify White and Turner, they suck!”
Perhaps MM was the cause of the struggles of these two as well? Or maybe, just maybe, MM wasn’t the (only) problem…
Easy answer about Romo and how many of the Cowgirl fans feel
They have more confidence in their OC, rightly or wrongly so.
As far as the coddling comment goes, if you view it as coddling because blame is being put on the coach instead of the player, then that is your issue. You are an example of a fan that believes that a player should perform well regardless of the system and that rational is beyond me.
As far as what I’ll say next year about Ryan, you have no idea and don’t presume to and don’t speak for me. If Ryan digresses with a better performance from the OL and as good, or better, stable of offensive weapons they I will question his ability to lead the team.
If you cannot look at the big picture and understand the effects of the OC on the offense that is your issue. The stats have been there for three years to support that MM sucks. Until we get a better OC I’m not going to throw Ryan under the bus. You don’t feel the same way, that’s fine as it’s your opinion.
Also, you have not heard me complain about MT or White, get your facts straight.
Really?
If you cannot look at the big picture and understand the effects of the OC on the offense that is your issue.
Seriously? Come on mwalex, are you trolling me? How can anyone with as myopic a view as yours say I can’t see the big picture? For you, it’s all MM all the time, like the players are mindless automatons who always execute the plans perfectly. The big picture is this: Failures of offenses are the result of a combination of players and OC. This is my view. I’m merely disturbed people like you (though you may disagree) who assume that MM is the only problem with our offense, and will wait until everything is perfect and Ryan flat out sucks before they even discuss the ideas presented in this post.
As loathe as I am to defend MM, these are the facts: points per game (out of 32 teams)-
2008: 10th
2009: 13th
2010: 5th
2011: 7th
Our offense may not have performed to the level we would have wanted, and a change was probably needed, but MM didn’t suck. Maybe you should get your facts straight.
Unrelated:
Until we get a better OC I’m not going to throw Ryan under the bus.
Curious: Do you think DK is better than MM?
Trolling you?
Not worth my time.
Again, low information fans fall back on things like points per game which means nothing. You make decisions on stats that are irrelevant, good for you. I have NEVER said MM was the only problem, again please try to get your fact straight. I have said that MM was a problem and until we get a better OC no one knows the potential for the offense or what really needs to be fixed
Why don’t you look at some better stats:
2011 – passing DVOA was 8th and rushing was 25th
2010 – 8th in passing DVOA and 26th in rushing
2009 – 13th in passing and 15th in rushing
2008 – 4th in pass and 19th in rushing
What does that indicate? That the team did not improve for the four years that MM was the OC. Or, that ALL of the key offensive players stunk. Even after adding “weapons” in 2011 the offense did not imrpove.
Is DK better than MM? I guess we’ll find out.
You don't understand how this 'inference' thing works, do you?
You don’t have to say “I blame MM and only MM for our offensive woes” for that to be what people believe of you. We can observe what you say. You assume because you don’t explicitly say it, that it cannot be attached to you. That is a fallacy. If I say “It’s so hot. I don’t wanna go outside. I’d rather stay indoors all summer that be scorched” One could infer that I don’t like warm weather, even though I didn’t say so. Even in the post I am responding to, only MM is pointed out as a problem.
And those DVOA numbers, those are all his fault?(But let me guess, you didn’t say that?) I’m sure none of it had to do with the o-line or turner’s injuries. Combined, those numbers are good for 12th best DVOA in the league. Either way, again, those aren’t the numbers of someone who sucks. Surely there can be improvement, but if you think that sucks, you’re standards are just as high as the Cowboys fans you mention below. (Though I do not fault anyone for this. Everyone has a right to expect great things from their team.)
Yes, ppg means nothing. I guess in your world we don’t need to score to win games. (but you didn’t say that, right?) Clearly the team with the highest DVOA won the superbowl, right? Oh wait, they had a lower total DVOA than even we did. PPG is no more or less relevant than DVOA. just different ways of measuring a team. If DVOA were the end all be all, we would have beat the Giants and GB would be the SB champs (Again though, you didn’t say that and I need to get my facts straight.)
If you have no opinion of DK, then where does it end? If you don’t know whether it’s the players that are good or not in the first place, why did you want MM gone so badly? Just to find out? If you don’t know beforehand if an OC is better than MM and you don’t know if the problem before was the players or the OC, then how can you ever be sure its not just player improvement or focus that is the difference if they improve? How will you determine it? DVOA?
In the end, I just want the whole team scrutinized for their failures, top to bottom. There are no sacred cows, and there shouldn’t be any designated pariahs.
by Starrk on Feb 15, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow
I should have stopped at your pathetic attempt to defend MM by using total points scored as a gauge on how good a job he was doing.
As far as the “inference” thing goes you are projecting how you respond on me. I have learned that on boards like this posters like yourself take inferences, twist them and run with them like a child with a new toy, just liek you did above. I say what I mean and mean what I say.
On the DVOA, you just lost your own arguement by mentioning the OL and MT’s injuries because those issues had a negative effect on Ryans performance. Especially the OL. Wow, talk about myopic.
Don’t need to score points to win games? Of course you need to score points to win games but that does not indicate how effective on offense is. If you don’t grasp that concept then I can’t help you. Again, low information is as low information does.
You again showed your lack of understanding of DVOA. NY had a higher total DVOA, passing and rushing DVOA than ATL. They were 7th overall, 4th in passing and 20th in rushing. Also, since you have big picture issues, we aren’t discussing D performance, which would further explain why NY beat GB and ATL, but that is lost on this conversation, Yes, I did day that plainly, so you won’t be confused or mix my words.
I have no opinion on DK because I don’t follow JAX and haven’t bothered to dig into his teams past performance. I will gauge his performance with ATL during and after the season. A coaches job is to get the most out of his players, which MM did not do and if think so then that is your opinion. I don’t understand how that is such a challenging concept, but it sure seems to be a hard one in this discussion.
I agree about no sacred cows. What I want is for players to be evaluated based on ALL the factors that effect their performance. That includes supporting cast and coaches. I don’t think that there many QB’s in the league that would have done much better than Ryan with what he had to work with this past season. Of course there are some but we don’t have them nor will we get them. Instead of bitching and whinning about Ryan, who isn’t going anywhere, how about looking at what can be fixed to improve his performance, or is that too much of a challenge? Is Ryan perfect? Nope. He is our QB and is good enough to win a championship.
by mwalex on Feb 16, 2012 8:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Another reason why the Cowboy fans
are calling for Romo’s head is that going into every season they expect to win a Super Bowl. Anything less is abject failure. For the most part people here blame Romo for the loss regardless of the reasons for the loss. Just like a lot of posters on this board. This past season I did hear people calling for the HC to be fired but that won’t happen as long as Jones likes him.
by mwalex on Feb 15, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Matt is what makes our offense work
Compared to most QB’s in the league, Matt had to earn majority of his yards because we had no screen game. QB’s like Cam, Brees, and Eli got hundreds of yards and 3rd down conversions via the screen game. He was also handicapped by an OC obsessed with curl routes. Most WR’s aren’t going to get YAC from curl routes. Also, when you consider the crappy O-line Matt played behind in 2011, he had an impressive season. I’m looking forward to seeing how well he plays under a new scheme and improved O-line.
Matty is far from a "cancer", BUT...
I think there are a few things that need to be addressed. Matt’s upsides are many…you have to admit that he’s cool under (game) pressure (not so great under pocket pressure, tho), he runs the two minute as well as anybody (well, maybe excluding Peyton), he makes good reads for the most part, and his team has a lot of confidence in him.
That being said, there are a few things that, IMHO, should be addressed by the new QB coach:
1. Strength…regular trips to the weight room could help get the ball down the field on long pass plays (isn’t that why we gave away the farm for JJ?)
2. Bailing too soon… there were LOTS of times that I felt that he bailed out of the pocket too soon before the pressure really got to him. Brady, for instance, is anything but mobile, but he has the best “pocket presence” that I have ever seen. I’d like to see Matt learn to step up or slide better when under pressure since, more often than not, he ends up getting sacked when he bails out anyway.
3. “Happy Feet”…it seems that when Matt does stay in the pocket under pressure and steps up or slides, he has trouble getting his feet reset for a throw. Again, using Brady as a comparison, Brady seems to “hop” from position A to position B so that his feet come down in a set position to throw the ball. Same with Brees, Peyton, and most any great passing QB. This is basic coaching for the QB position.
What do you guys think?
Points two and three
can be solved by better OL play.
by mwalex on Feb 15, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
JJ is not a deep threat WR
he is a YAC guy – he isn’t supposed to be doing what Torrey Smith is doing in Baltimore or what Randy Moss did in New England. You put the ball in his hands and he makes play. Think Larry Fitzgerald.
know what you believe in and why you believe in it
by MentallyMIA on Feb 15, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
He has weaknesses....
But I shudder to think what would have happened to our franchise if we hadn’t drafted him. Who else turned out better than him from that draft class? Flacco would be arguable, but he hasn’t put up the stats, and plays for a team with shutdown defense. We could have waited another year or two, had more losing seasons and ended up with who, Sanchez? Bradford?
Matt gives us a chance if we can surround him with the right pieces. Look at it this way. If you go on career, year by year averages, Matt Ryan is better than Eli Manning…His first four seasons, actually, are way better. Now, Eli’s got two rings. No reason Matt Ryan can’t.
by ChardeeMacDennis on Feb 15, 2012 5:44 PM EST reply actions
Im on the fence about MR
His O line play was horrible last year but he does have his faults. He bails to quickly and his pocket awareness is average at best. He also was born with 2 left feet. Now he does need to improve on his deep ball and hitting his receivers in stride. I think more seam routes and slants will help MR with that. To me sometimes he seems destined for greatness and next he seems like Rick Mirer. Hopefully we get things together I like MR and think he will bring us our first ring in a few seasons(hopefully cause I’m tired of this drought).
by pierre02 on Feb 15, 2012 6:35 PM EST via mobile reply actions
He has his faults, but it's insane to suggest he's a cancer
He’s a quiet team leader and a Top 10 quarterback in today’s NFL. No other team’s fanbase in the NFL would even be ASKING this question if they had Ryan. Look at the Ravens with Flacco, who has demonstrably worse stats than Ryan. Ravens fans will defend him to the death.
Criticizing Ryan makes sense. He’s still far from perfect and there’s room for growth there, and if he’s not playing well, he’s going to get lit up. I’m okay with that, and I’m not trying to insult anyone here. I just don’t understand, given the awful history of this franchise at the position, how we’re having this discussion.
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by Dave Choate on Feb 16, 2012 9:25 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
A-F**K**G-MEN
"I'd run over my own mother to win the Super Bowl." - Joe Jacoby, formerly of the Redskins
"To win, I'd run over Joe's mom too." - Matt Millen, formerly of the Raiders
"We now have exactly the same situation as we had at the start of the race, only exactly the opposite" - Murray Walker, Sportscaster
All Very Good
Posts. I think it was mostly playcalling and crappy OL that really messed up Matt last season. Mwalex makes several valid points, and so does Starrk and everyone else who has posted. We’ll see what DK brings to the table. Let’s don’t throw Matt under the bus. I really think he’s a lot better than most people think. I also like Dave’s last sentence on his post, about why are we even having this discussion.
Evil Falcon
Hello!
I just wanted everybody to know. This post was a shot at Mr. 2 to a degree. After I posted this I went into a thinking mood. I can honestly say after reconsidering all of my points. I thought about the positive and the negative to Matty. While his negatives sometimes get on my nerves, I must say he definitely makes up for with his positives. I think that Matt Ryan definitely deserves support. He will no doubt in my mind bring us a Super Bowl ring one day. I would like to say that I think no QB is better fit for the Falcons then him. He is like the Dark Knight. He does good, but he also takes blame for the bad b/c he knows he can handle it. Matt Ryan is not a cancer. He is definitely the Answer. So no matter what happens next year, I am going to support MR to the fullest b/c it is what he deserves. He has won us games, he has cut his teeth with a team that was at the bottom. The problem with us is that we are so used to winning and we as humans always want more. No matter what, that is what we want. I say that we focus on where Matt Ryan is going to go. I must admit by re-analyzing his leadership on the field, I have gained a new respect for who we have at the helm.
New Campaign: By all means, support our QB!
"The only person who has took more shots to the head than Tito Ortiz is his wife."
by that_falcon_fan on Feb 16, 2012 9:24 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Not a cancer he's a great qb to have who i'm behind 100%. I believe he will improve, but
he needs to this off season. No more 1 and done its ridiculous and this team is too good for that. Ryan needs to work on buying a little more time in the pocket, his strength!, deep ball accuracy, and his play on the road. The o line got owned vs Houston but Ryan was shook and arguably cost us that game. The team overall this year often looked unfocused. From dropped balls to bad angles. Hopefully the new coaches will help that.
by DEMBIRDZCUZ! on Feb 17, 2012 4:39 AM EST up reply actions
Matt definitley needs to work on strength
He needs to spend some time with Julio this off season and get cut up like him.
Vick/Schaub=Ryan
Is Vick better with Philly? Is Houston better with Schaub? Is Atl better with Ryan? The answer is yes to all 3 points. Philly and Houston would be a better team with Ryan as well. If Atlanta had the Houston defence, and Eagles offence (other than Ryan) they would have beaten Giants and GB then the SB. Even with MM as OC,
bravesfan1957
by rwh41360 on Feb 17, 2012 11:50 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
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