What, Exactly, Is Criteria For Being A 'Good' QB?
by Caleb Rutherford on Jun 28, 2011 6:50 PM EDT
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Just a little discussion post for you all this afternoon.
I'd like to point you to a post I read over at our friends' (or bird rivals, your call) site, Baltimore Beat Down. The post discusses the the top 5 QBs under 30 years old, as per a recent segment on ESPN Radio, with our own Matt Ryan coming in at a respectable 4th place. Kiper had Flacco at #5, and understandably so, but show host Dari Nowkhah had Josh Freeman in the 5 spot, which lead to a small riot in BBD.
Ok, maybe it wasn't that bad, but it did lead to a rather interesting discussion on the site about which quarterbacks are preferable to others, including one individual suggesting he would take Big Ben over Marino because of the Super Bowl rings.
So I must ask, what exactly constitutes one QB being better than the other? It's a difficult question, one stats could both confirm and revoke, I'm sure.
Quarterbacks are often the face of a franchise. They do all the interviews and they take on just about all the spotlight. But does a winning team always constitute the team having a super quarterback? Recent history would suggest no (see 2000 Ravens), and in some cases, a super quarterback can not always overcome other downfalls of the team (see current-era Colts)
Naturally, the hog of the spotlight would often receive credit for Super Bowl rings, even though in some cases (Ben's first ring) it came practically in spite of him.
A QB can't obtain passing records without having a stable of good receivers, nor can he pass effectively without a competent OC, nor can he pass as easily without a running game. Is the best QB the one who can overcome deficiencies in those things the best? If that's the case, then I suppose I should inform you of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgxSzxIxPrY&feature=related
Perhaps the only human being to possess magical powers, Brett Favre overcame many a situation that almost every other QB would have faltered. Yes, he only has one SB ring, but Marino has none, and Peyton only has one, too.
I'm not saying Favre is the greatest ever, but he was arguably a QB that made the most out of a terrible situation time and time and time again.
My question for you today is this: What constitutes a QB being better than another? Is it total wins? Is it touchdowns? It is Super Bowl rings? Where does Marino, arguably one of the most gifted passers ever to play the game, fit in to the equation? Discuss!
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There it goes.
It wouldn’t post when I wrote it 2.5 hours ago. .
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by Caleb Rutherford on Jun 28, 2011 6:50 PM EDT reply actions
Personal Achievements
In basketball championships show greatness because one person controls ~20% of what goes on while they are on the floor. Football is completely different since 22 people effect the game. Marino and Favre are the two best of all time with Peyton possibly joining them. Roethlisberger is not currently in the top 8 IMO. A quarterback in the NFL is responsible for scoring as efficiently or as much as possible. Marino and Favre did that better than anyone else and can’t help what their rb’s or defense does. Rings aren’t everything in the NFL its more about how they contribute
by Sky Hawk on Jun 28, 2011 7:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Best QB is the one who you want in control when the game is on the line
For example, in the NBA this past season, Dirk Nowitzki had the best rating in clutch minutes if you look at those numbers here. He shoots 60% from the field, averaged fifty points and fourteen rebounds spread over a full 48 minute game, and he had a +/- of 59. His team also just won a championship. If there are some stats similar to this, I would bet the top QBs are pretty successful in them (while some of the overrated guys might lack in the category).
"He has lived up to the legendary billing... And the legend is born in Calvin Johnson!" -Wes Durham
by sportsfan4life2012 on Jun 28, 2011 7:48 PM EDT reply actions
I don't think Superbowls mean all that much
Playoff wins either in all honesty. Obviously you don’t want a guy who chokes up completely in the clutch, but I doubt any professional QBs really do that. Why should Eli Manning get the credit for a SB win won on the backs of the play of Umenyiora, Tuck and Strahan. Because he didn’t lose his team the game? I think it’s about a guy who consistently gets his team to the playoffs despite whatever else is going on around him. Someone who is vital to the team’s success or failure. Mark Sanchez has been to 2 AFC championship games, but the same team could probably have got to both with his backup playing. Roethlisberger set the record for lowest QB rating in the Superbowl, but still won it. So playoff wins and SB wins don’t tell the whole story. Looking at how a team would be without that player does. Which is why Manning is the best for me. Without him the Colts would be terrible. Without Brady the Pats were 11-5.
I'd say there are two ways to be a good QB.
1) Win Superbowls. – It shows leadership, ability to thrive under pressure, and that you are a winner.
2) Be better than most statistically for a decade.
If you can do one of these then you are a “good” QB.
To be “great” you need to have done both.
to be great?
regarding your post:
1a. Tony Banks (69.3 qb rating) and Trent Dilfer (76.6 qb rating) each started 8 games for the 2000 Ravens Championship team for a total of 20 td’s and 19 int’s and 3080 passing yards between them.
1b. Brad Johnson had a 92.9 qb rating, 22td’s, 6int’s and 3049 yards for the 2002 Bucs Championship team
those are good qb’s?
2. I can agree with that one.
Based on your 1 & 2 criteria, Marino is not great?
Dont cloud the issue with facts!
his point is simple
1-win big games
2- have the numbers to back it up
marino isn’t great, with the team he had he should have won multiple superbowls.
That team never was the
defensive team that the great Dolphins teams were, not many were. However let’s remember that David Woodley took a Dolphin team to the SB.
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.
by FrozenFinger on Jun 29, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
not great defensively
but hey 10 playoffs appearances for marino and 0 rings? i’m just saying he should have gotten lucky at least once.
So he's not great
Because he didn’t get lucky?
Dont care...
Marino was one of the best to ever play the game. Period. If Elway had retired 2 years sooner he would have been an average QB?
Dont cloud the issue with facts!
True
Elway’s career was pretty underwhelming until he got Terrell Davis to play with.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2285_The_5_most_overrated_quarterbacks.html
lol this is great!
muuzilla: “If Elway had retired 2 years sooner he would have been an average QB?”
mosugo: Elway’s career was pretty underwhelming until he got Terrell Davis to play with.
lmao there’s your answer, if elway had retired 2 years sooner he would have been a pretty underwhelming, average qb……….
thanks mosugo, couldn’t have said it better myself lmao!
I didn't see average anywhere
He would have been good. Damn good. Much better than average. But he won a few rings, so he’s great.
by BabyGoatEater on Jun 29, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
gosh..............this guy mosugo man...........
“So he’s not great Because he didn’t get lucky?”
come on man you know i’m saying out of 10 trips to the playoffs he could of at least lucked up and won a ring instead he won none………………..get it?………. it’s probably still not simplified enough for you.
i can always count on mosugo to twist something up, down, back, forth, and around. geeeeeezzzz!
by mr92687!!! on Jun 29, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
1b. Brad Johnson had a 92.9 qb rating, 22td’s, 6int’s and 3049 yards
With a decent defense, I’ll take that kind of production from my QB and win multiple championships.
Smokey says: Only you can BVG forest fires.
my point being
that he was not a great QB. He had a very good year and the best asset for him was that defense. Over his career he averaged 4 TDs for every 3 INTs he threw with a career QB rating of 82.5. Not exactly a great QB. Serviceable, yes. Great? No. My point being that the original poster said you need to win SB’s and be better than most for a decade to be great and I pointed that Johnson was great for a year, not statistically great over a decade. In fact, apart from TB fans, I wonder how many would have known he was the QB that year? I honestly thought it was King that year until I looked it up.
Dont cloud the issue with facts!
yes
By my criteria Marino isn’t a great QB. He’s damn good. He’s so good, he might have been great if he won the big one.
I think the point of the post is to discuss the criteria used to determine a good QB. IMO there’s only two ways to quantify (for lack of better word) a good QB. I’m not saying there aren’t guys overlooked, but without the above, it’s just opinions.
The point of the game (which is a team sport in all ways possible) is to win the Superbowl. Stats are used to see differences in players year-to-year. They both have flaws when singling out one position, but it’s the best we have.
So yes, Marino was damn good, not great; and Trent Dilfer has to be seen as a good QB just lower on the pole than Marino.
by BabyGoatEater on Jun 29, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't put Farve there
because he placed his team in difficult situations time and time again. Kind of like you and Ben. And honestly I have a personal dislike for him that keeps me from judging him honestly. His cockiness I find irritating but it’s the same cockiness that I admire about Philip Rivers whom I used to despise.
Eli’s play is more often than not lately bone-headed. Used to love “the player who shall not be named” but his lies put the very franchise in danger.
I’d rather have the talented, lucky guy. Drew Brees is talented but luck or fortune if you will has put him in a remarkable system with a coach that I hate.
Sky Hawk made excellent points though about personal achievements. I too don’t place Ben highly but again the type of man he is bothers me. But I remember when the Rams got down to a guy from NFL Europe – Kurt Warner and Dick Vermeil said that the Rams would be “fine” and I thought “You’ve got to be kidding me. He’s a grocery clerk” Well, I think it’s safe to say that he may be a HOF QB. Two different semi-crappy teams to Super Bowls. Go figure.
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.
And look how bad the Cardinals are without him
From Superbowl contender to picking at no.5. That’s the effect I think Manning would have.
I agree on Favre, FroFing. I think he's easily the most overrated passer in history.
He had a strong arm, and that got him out of trouble in some cases, but it also created a buttload of turnovers at the wrong time.
Your response to Kurt Warner reminds me of my reaction when the Braves signed Terry Pendleton. “Just what we need: another washed up utility infielder.” He won the MVP and the batting title that year.
—AOb
How many more days, Lord, must I walk through the wilderness?
GO FALCONS!!
Didn't they sign TP
and Sid Bream in the same week? I thought “Oh boy, here we go” And off we went, still the most surprising and pleasant year in my history of watching Georgia sports.
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.
by FrozenFinger on Jun 29, 2011 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Ouch.
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by Caleb Rutherford on Jun 28, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering 'good' is a point of view,
I would say a combination of adaptability, up-bringings, and “natural talent” (the intangibles if you will) plus supporting cast, “system,” and a dash of luck contribute to MAKING a good QB. Everything that follows is a result of those things.
I do realize it’s a very broad way of putting it but every QB and the situation he’s in is just so unique that it would be near impossible for someone to completely agree with another on who the prototypical, good, or great QB is.
Put any one QB in another situation you might have a completely different player with a completely different outcome, and a completely different team and thus a completely different argument.
Sorry my comment is kinda lame but that’s just how I feel.
by PurpleDRANKnotJUICE on Jun 28, 2011 10:17 PM EDT reply actions
Great QBs
Win games. Win games in the regular season, playoffs and Super Bowl. Win games.
There are occasions when a team is good enough to win a SB with an average QB. Dilfer (the prick) as an example. And there are occasions when the team around a great QB is never good enough to win a SB. Marino for example, who is not a prick.
But make a list of the top ten to fifteen generally considered top QBs of all time and winning games in the regular season, playoffs and SB will be the common denominator.
by Whopper Dawg on Jun 29, 2011 12:43 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Did they win games because they were great QBs
Or were they great QBs because they won games? Or does it not really matter.
Great QBs
Win games. Great QBs have a will to win. Favre is a perfect example and was a great QB despite other posts. His will to win was probably his biggest attribute.
by Whopper Dawg on Jun 29, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
There are a lot of great QB's that don't win games
Especially SB’s. Dan Foutz and Dan Marino were both great QB and neither won SB’s. Jim Kelly, in his own right, was a great QB and never won a SB. Foutz nor Marino has a defense that could hold a lead. Is that the QB’s fault.
Favre, in my opinion, we not a great QB. He cost his teams as many games as he won. He had the will, for sure, but not football intelligence and that was evident by the large number of late INT’s he threw in tight games.
There are a lot of great QB's that don't win games
Oh, they won a lot of games, but not the big one. You can be a great QB and not win the SB as I have already posted. But make your list of the top 15 and see the common denominator – it will be wins in the regular and post season including the SB.
Saying Favre was not a great QB is idiotic, he is a HOF, probably first ballet.
by Whopper Dawg on Jun 29, 2011 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
yes
favre is a great qb, first ballot hall of famer! before ryan came along i thought atlanta would never live down letting him go.
hey whopper dawg what did favre do that made him so great? easy……….the dude won games, even got a ring, and broke many records while doing so.
rec'd
But make a list of the top ten to fifteen generally considered top QBs of all time and winning games in the regular season, playoffs and SB will be the common denominator.
this is common sense but so hard for some to realize.
this is common sense but so hard for some to realize.
I agree, Name a great QB with a losing career record?
The debate on whether the team made the QB or the QB made the team is legit as it is a team sport and no man is an island.
Do you discount Brady because he played for the Pats? Starr because he played for Lombardi? Manning because they have sculpted their team around him?
I mean, what ya want anyway? A QB that has a losing record that plays for a poor team and coaching staff but still puts up great stats???? Maybe he (whoever he is) is the only great one.
by Whopper Dawg on Jun 29, 2011 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Steve Bartkowski
Career 59-68
Record during his “best” years (1978-84) 47-46
Exemplar Season: 1983
QB Rating: 97.6
Total Yards: 3167
TD’s 22
INT 5
Compl % 63.4%
Team went 6-8.
great qbs
are the ones that no other team wants to face
like a montana (best qb ever) or a peyton manning (2nd best qb ever)
I still remember that colts patriots game a year ago when the pats went for it on 4th and 2
Remember when they went for it against us
the same year from their own 25 ? And made it…
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.
by FrozenFinger on Jun 29, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Wins in general mean nothing for a QB.
The reason being they can play a perfect game but if the defense and special teams are horrid they still lose the game. You can’t really go by stats either because a perfectly placed ball can still be dropped by a stone handed reciever. Football is the ultimate team sport. The best QBs are the ones that make everyone around them play better. They are the ones that make other guys seem like superstars. If you look at the QBs that people here mention as good/great they all have that same quality.
by Falcons Fan in WA on Jun 29, 2011 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Since we're talking about QB's
and Ryan’s name is coming up I ran across a very interesting read concerning just how good Matt appears to be.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8876
I don’t know if it’s been posted before or not. If it has been I apologize.
That article
although an interesting read seems to try and use stats in ways they were not intended.
I just don’t buy it.
by BabyGoatEater on Jun 30, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
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