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The Great Turner/Norwood Debate

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via assets.espn.go.com

Despite four power outages and two data losses, I've finally managed to get this post up -- Warlock

The Falcons are, in a word, stacked at the running back position. Dave and MentallyMIA have touched on how powerful our backfield is and I'm in complete agreement. The Falcons are so stacked that arguments have arisen over who is the better back: Norwood or Turner. I'm going to dump some gasoline on that fire and present you guys with some observations I've made from their 2008 season stats. I may be reaching in some cases but it's an interesting study to make. Follow me over the jump and we'll get into the nitty gritty numbers.

Star-divide

First, let's look at Michael Turner's year. Turner's average gain per attempt in 2008 was 4.5 yards. His average yardage per game was 106 yards. Split that average game yardage by his 377 season carries and you get a 28% gain rate for the Burner. That's not bad. Now let's take his 1,699 total rushing yards and divide them by his 17 touchdowns. The Burner scored a touchdown every 99 yards. I'd call that very productive considering that his average yards per game is 106; that's at least a score a game. This means that 4% of his carries scored.

Norwood's stats look a bit different. He ended the year with 5.2 yards gained per attempt, eclipsing his Touchdown Vampire cohort. Jerious didn't see the ball much with only 94 attempts and 489 yards. Per game he gained only 30 yards and scored only 4 touchdowns on the ground the entire season. He winds up getting a 32% gain rate. Looks better, right? Well, let's take his scores into account. His score rate is actually the same when considering his carries. He scored 4% of the time he touched the ball. He did, however, take nearly four times as long to score. Norwood scored every 120 yards; with a per-game average of 30, Jerious had nearly four games between scores.

The argument is therefore whether or not, given equal amounts of carries, Norwood could equate or better Turner. If my above observations stay true this season (they won't) and Smitty gives them 200 carries each (he won't), the stats break down thusly:

Yards TDs
Turner 900 9.1
Norwood 1040 8.7

Of course, you can't have seven-tenths of a touchdown. Rounded, both runners have the same amount of touchdowns, with Norwood eating up more yardage between the posts. Norwood's superfluous 140 yards would be pure gain for the offense. That's 14 extra first downs for the offense.

These figures do not take into account maturation and fatigue. They also are not predicators. They are simply last year's numbers used in an interesting way. I am not meaning to say that Turner and Norwood are equals. I am, however, convinced that Norwood is on his way out of Falcons red. He could make a team looking for a feature back very happy in the near future and the organization probably won't be willing to pay full price for two feature backs.

As for this season, I'd like to see Norwood with the ball more, especially in need-to-gain situations. Turner is a bruiser and finds the endzone quicker than my Tom-Tom finds traffic jams. 

For those visual readers out there, I've compiled some charts using StatPlot.com to help further this study.

Charts:

This chart illustrates Michael Turner's Attempts and Total Yards per game. First notice the roller-coaster like nature of the yards gained. Notice too how his attempts are fairly even the entire season. What's most promising though is the general upturn of his big games. Pretend the Detroit game didn't happen and then draw a line between the all the big games. Every big game got bigger and bigger as the season went along. This points at two things: the ability of Turner improving and the maturation of the relatively young OL we had last year.

Next we take a look at Norwood's Attempts and Total Yards per game. While the lines stay far apart over the first half of the season, they get closer and closer (eventually crossing each other) before picking back up again. Since he's getting nearly the same attempts per game, this may reflect player fatigue. Norwood, unlike Turner, did not keep a up/down pace but rather stormed out of the gate, tired, and then recuperated.

Here I've pitted Norwood and Turner against each other to see who has the better explosive play count. As you can see, 75% of the time, Turner owns the longest play of the game. Turner scores a lot in a short amount of yardage, so it makes sense that he would be the more explosive player.

This chart compares Norwood and Turner's yards-per-attempt averages. Norwood wins on this one, having a much higher yards per carry stat. This does not mean Norwood is more explosive, it only means that Norwood, when used, gains more yardage between the line of scrimmage and the first down marker.

It's safe to say that this is not an easy debate to take sides on. On the one hand, you have Michael Turner, endzone-capturing expert. On the other, Jerious Norwood, yardage gobbler. Picking between the two would be very difficult. If forced, I'd have to say Michael Turner. I'll take scoring over ball control in almost any situation. That's just the type of fan I am. Like it or loathe it, Turner has a minute edge over Norwood in scoring speed.

Enough of my yammering. Get to commenting! Oh, and vote too, if you want.

UPDATE: Thanks to reader TomQ for the inspiration. Let's look at each back's median Yards Per Carry. This will help highlight their YPC on "normal" plays. With the explosive plays out of the equation, Turner has a median YPC of 3.8 while Norwood carries a median YPC of 4.1. This new revelation gives us a better picture of the debate and helps sway the argument towards Turner, at least in my opinion. Here's a chart.

Median_medium

Norwood's media YPC may be higher but his trend spread is way off the charts, going into the negatives. Turner seems much more consistent on his game-to-game performance. Norwood's inconsistency, as TomQ predicted, is highlighted when we calculate their median YPCs. 

That settles it for me. I'll take consistency and scoring. Turner it is.

Poll
Who's the better back: Turner or Norwood?
Turner
122 votes
Norwood
16 votes
I'll take 'em both, thanks.
271 votes
Tuggle! He's a back too, right?
5 votes

414 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 55 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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WOW

Just WOW.

Great Stuff.

go hard or go home

by TO falcon on Jun 14, 2009 7:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Theres nothing much extra to be said

when its all in the article :D

go hard or go home

by TO falcon on Jun 14, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

They would be the best...

Smash/Dash-Thunder/Lightning-…Speedster/Bruiser Combo if they split carries evenly.

If you give norwood 1/2 of the carries Turner got, and Smitty used them in smart situations, Falcons would be even better.

Now dont get me wrong, Im a huge Turner supporter, giant. But Norwood hasnt had a chance to get any amount of carries similair to a starter (Behind Dunn and now Turner) He’d be recognized by the league if he got his fair share of carries.

by FlyYouFalcons on Jun 14, 2009 10:19 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd settle for

60-65% for Turner and 35-40% for Norwood…

by orang3b on Jun 15, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

how much would change

if you took into account receptions – Norwood did have the ability to make things happen after passes in the flat.

I would really love to see a 50/50 split for these two, but I do agree with you, I see longevity in Turner and would have him as my feature back if forced to choose. It is a tough one to choose too though, Norwood is exciting to watch and scary fast.

thanks for that article too, btw. The graphs were great

know what you believe in and why you believe in it

by MentallyMIA on Jun 14, 2009 10:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Receptions were a part of my observations.

Norwood one that wholeheartedly. He had longer reception explosive plays than rushing EPs. He only had two TDs through the air though. The scoring ratio would not be altered. If anything, with reception TDs thrown in, Norwood would be equal to Turner’s 9.1

And you’re welcome. You can thank J.Mike at falconsLIFE for the link to StatPlot. Awesome stuff there.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 14, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is mind-blowingly good stuff

Stop trying to put me out of a job!

Sign up for a free account today to join the discussion about all things Atlanta Falcons!

by Dave Choate on Jun 14, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Of course

I’d love to keep both backs around as long as possible, but Turner’s still the man.

Sign up for a free account today to join the discussion about all things Atlanta Falcons!

by Dave Choate on Jun 15, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

orang3b linked to an article that says the Falcons are interested

in locking Norwood up. Man, a RB tandem like that for the foreseeable future? Glad I got my season tix!

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

show off

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

You still have an open spot?

If so, then I guess I need to get in contact with you so we can plan it.

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still have lots of open spots.

The only taken games are these: San Diego, Miami, Chicago.

Two spots are spoken for but the parties haven’t chose games yet.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keep them both

I’d hate to see either one go, personally. And I don’t see why they wouldn’t want Norwood to stay around, given all the other yardage at different position he racks up. You get at least 3 positions in one guy.

by The Lloyd on Jun 14, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Totally agree

I would like to see Norwood get more carries than he has been. I think he’d add a whole diiferent dimension to our offense that’d take a while for defenses to figure out.

If I had a nickel for everytime someone told me I should shutup, I'd probably have 5 or 6 bucks.

by pchaucer on Jun 14, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

wait wait wait

I really hope you aren’t implying that you’d like to see Norwood throw the football.

know what you believe in and why you believe in it

by MentallyMIA on Jun 15, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Norwood is a great 2nd back, but...

I think we have a chance to resign him because most teams won’t think he has the size to be a feature back. Plus, the next couple of seasons will be easy on the salary cap with all the 1st and 2nd year players on the team.

"We're not maxed out, ... The best is still ahead of us."

Bobby Bowden

by NaGaNole on Jun 15, 2009 6:48 AM EDT reply actions  

If you're suggesting

That, because we’ll have a lot of players on their rookie contracts, then we should pay 2 RB’s starter money… then I’d have to say “I strenuously object”.

This is one of the reasons I frowned on the Turner signing – because it meant Norwood would probably leave after his rookie contract is up…

by orang3b on Jun 15, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

This is exactly what I told some of my co-workers when they couldn’t believe I wasn’t excited about the Turner signing. Turner is good back, and he showed he haz the skills this past season, but I’ve always thought we had our back all along in Norwood. Paying Tuner 35mil only means that someone else will be paying Norwood when he contract is up.

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I saw that too...

Looks like they’re interested in re-signing Norwood right after they lock up White. Makes sense to me. Who else is in line? Dahl, Clabo?

by TomQ on Jun 15, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's awesome

If they can do it of course. From everything I have read, Norwood has always, and still does, want to be a feature back, but he has always said he was committed to the Falcons winning first, regardless of how he is used. To me, this simply means he wants the rock more often on running plays than he had been getting which is a good thing. That desire is what makes good players great imo.

Here’s to seeing that Blank & CO get it done with Norwood, and White, and we get to watch one of the best Falcons teams play together for quite some time.

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like Norwood...

but in my view, currently, he is a back-up or role player. There is no doubt that he has that “home-run” ability, but I think he’s a little too inconsistent.

Also, from a statistics standpoint, I’d be interested to know what their median yards/carry was – this would give a better indication of what we could expect to see Turner or Norwood gain on any given carry. Both have the ability to break out a long run which creates outliers, skewing their mean (average) to the positive. The median will help to mute those extreme values to give a better idea of what each back gets on a “typical” play.

Great job tlozwarlock, I applaud your work. Any chance you’d be willing to re-run those stats using a median? I’d love to see how they stack up!

by TomQ on Jun 15, 2009 9:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Excellent, thanks tlozwarlock!

You da man. Can’t wait to see – I think it’ll be enlightening.

by TomQ on Jun 15, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Check the post. Updated.

Just as you predicted, Norwood looks VERY inconsistent when you plot the ordered set. He still has the higher YPC but it’s only because of his explosiveness.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks!

That is very interesting. Also, it’s interesting to see that both of their median YPC, per game, were trending upward through the season. I don’t have time to verify this, but I suspect that Norwood had very few carries in those last couple of games in which his median was so high. I know he didn’t get that many carries all year, but I would bet that he had even fewer in those last few games.

All that said, I’m actually surprised to see that Norwood’s overall median YPC was greater than Turner’s. I think they (the coaching staff) has a good handle on when to put him in the game to increase his chances of having the breakout run. I’m fine with them continuing doing what they’re doing. Obviously it worked out well last year, with our running game being ranked so highly. Both they and I realize that it’s not a good idea to run Turner so much, with the threat of injury or just wearing him out, and I think that’ll be reflected in this years calls.

In general, I find that the “mean” is a misleading measure for a lot of statistics, it’s just what more people are used to. For example, if running back X gets 10 carries with the following yardage:

-2, 0, 4, 7, -1, 0, 2, 3, 1, 47

Their mean would be = 6.1 ypc, and their median would be 1.5 ypc. If you use three downs and only get 4.5 yards, it’ll take you three or four series before you get that one in ten big run. Is that worth it? I don’t know, but I’d rather have consistency, banging out 4 or 5 median ypc.

Thanks again tlozwarlock. I really appreciate you doing that.

by TomQ on Jun 15, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

The last two games, Norwood had 5 carries or so.

Very little carries, lots of gains, though.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Success Rate

In Football Outsiders’ numbers are similar to that – except they also take into account down & distance.

In general, a play counts as a “hit” if it gains 40% of yards needed on first down, 60% of yards needed on second down, and 100% of yards needed on third down.

And Norwood’s always graded out well in that stat…

by orang3b on Jun 15, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I imagine so. I didn't really have the time to play-by-play his numbers.

I’m sure both stats would be parallel to FO’s. This season I plan to keep track of everything so that posts like this will be much easier to compile next year lol

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Warlock,

Great Post, again… Rec’d. A few things:

1) What exactly is Gain Rate telling us? I mean, I see that it is Yards per Game divided by Total Carries… but what exactly does that show? Maybe I just can’t wrap my mind around it just yet…

2) I’d say Norwood’s TD rate is pretty darn impressive, considering he (seemingly) never gets a touch in the Red Zone. Seriously, I can’t remember anybody besides Turner getting a carry on goal-to-go except HD’s 7 yard end around score in the 2nd Carolina game. Turner should have a high TD rate – he’s the goal-line back.

3) Wasn’t the games Norwood had lower stats the same time he was struggling with the rib injury? I know one of the knocks on him is that he gets banged-up, but that would help explain the poor showing in those few weeks. By the way, I think something is screwed up with the 2nd TB game (the box score shows 4 carries for -7 yards). I went through the play-by-play, and unless I’m missing something, his totals should be 5 carries for -1 yards (yeah, still not good).

by orang3b on Jun 15, 2009 10:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Answers

1. Gain rate is a measure of the back’s return on investment in the run. Basically, for 100% effort (attempts), 28% of that effort is converted into results (gains). I equate it to a in/out production stat.

2. Agreed. It is impressive with only 94 carries. Given time and carries, there would be more opportunity to score for Norwood. We should see him in the redzone more often, to be honest.

3. Yes, they were. But the fact is: he was played even with that injury and the detriment showed. Personally, I would have rather had him on the sideline recouping. I’ll have to look into the play-by-play and see.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have a problem with this

I don’t think you can compare the two backs numbers from last year alone. Tuner carried the ball over 300 times giving his numbers some stability across means or medians, where as norwoods sample size is much much smaller, allowing his numbers in the mean or median vary wildly. The less data supplied, the more erractic the results.

If it were me, I would have crunched the numbers of when they were both backups, giving each a somewhat equal sample set under the same circumstances, throwing out Turner’s year with the Falcons as a full time starter. If the result is the same, then you have a much more proving point of each backs’ trends.

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions  

ugh

Hit post instead of preview, so forgive my grammatical errors. Where is my edit button Dave?

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you look at each back's 2006 numbers

Turner is still the better back.

I only concerned myself with the Falcons stats for each back. May not be fair in Norwood’s case but I don’t plan to go too far into the past. I might compare the 2006 stats just to see.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

WaitaWaitaWaitaMinute...

In 2006 they looked pretty darn similar. And in 2007 Norwood was much, MUCH better than Turner (and he was playing behind a worse Offensive Line).

by orang3b on Jun 15, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

One of you guys should run the aggregate numbers from each back's entire body of work.

For now, I’m going to be working on a Falcons #1 draft pick retrospective.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh and if anyone takes me up on that challenge,

I’m sure Dave would be glad to promote the post to the front page.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure would

Sign up for a free account today to join the discussion about all things Atlanta Falcons!

by Dave Choate on Jun 15, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll be glad to do it...

…once I get a new modem at the house. I can’t spend that kind of time on it at work, and Friday I found out my modem has been recalled because of an internal defect and am currently waiting for a new one to arrive. Hopefully tomorrow or Wednesday at the latest. So feel free to crunch those numbers before me Orang3b.

If I’m lucky enough, I might still have them compiled from when I looked up both guys when we signed Turner for my co-workers. If I remember correctly, in the same role with similar amounts of carries, Norwood’s numbers were better than Turner’s, but pure #’s > my memory right now.

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Naw,

That’s all yours Jesse… especially if you’ve already run some #‘s. I’m trying to finish up a couple other things (the TE usage, defensive tendencies, etc…).

by orang3b on Jun 15, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Roger that

I’ll start diggin through old emails and see if I have anything still save on the old comp at home. If not, then I’ll just pull it again.

Also, Warlock, that most definitely wasn’t an indictment of your work, so I hope it wasn’t taken that way. It’s more personal preference on how I would have drawn my numbers versus yours. All of us here seem to appreciate statistical data moreso than straight conjecture, so props to you brother!

ALSO, THIS JUST IN: The Clash is still better than your average band. More at 6.

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seconded

Great work, Warlock… plus, another reason I didn’t want to take that project is I’d be tempted to rig the results for Norwood…

by orang3b on Jun 15, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks guys.

The Falcoholic is awesome not because of one or two people but because of all of us. Each of us have different perspectives and opinions and without those, we don’t have discussion; without discussion, we don’t have a site.

Thanks for all the contributions to this debate. I will definitely revisit this in the future.

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

My follow-up is posted

I posted it in a separate fan-post so that I could add the tables.

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on Jun 15, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some good points...

Sample size can definitely skew things too, and stats can be deceiving. There really isn’t a way to find a perfect “apples to apples” comparison, although it appears that tlozwarlock is a quite the tlozworkaholic with this stuff and may be able to run more. Tloz, don’t hurt yourself!

by TomQ on Jun 15, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

This post was linked in Birdseed...

on the official site.

http://jmike.blogs.atlantafalcons.com/2009/06/15/birdseed-june-15-2009/

Good job tlozwarlock! Here’s what J. Mike had to say:

“Great use of charts and data analysis. But it doesn’t really matter who gets the most carries or touchdowns. You need two quality running backs to win in the NFL. Plain and simple.”

by TomQ on Jun 15, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions  

He also linked to our little Greatest Falcon Team project.

And I love his comment. It’s basically “Who gives a crap about stats? We’ve got em both!”

You have opinions. Share them.

by Adam Schultz on Jun 15, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

He makes a point...

Although I’ve never heard him say anything bad about anyone – smart move on his part. I don’t think anyone is suggesting Norwood isn’t good, it’s a question of how good (shades of grey). How much can we play him, thus taking carries away from Turner. That’s what this debate is all about.

by TomQ on Jun 15, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

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